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November 22, 2019, 4:28 am UTC    
July 26, 2015 11:02AM
G Horvat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lee Olsen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > But the origin of a DNA sequence doesn't seem
> to
> > have much influence on the origins of
> > morphological affinities:
>
> > The appearance of Southeast Asian features
> Early
> > humans in Asia lack the characteristic
> features of
> > the skull and face that are found in modern
> > Southeast Asians. Exactly when typical
> Southeast
> > Asian features arose is difficult to
> ascertain,
> > but there appears to be little evolutionary
> > continuity between these modern Asians and
> the
> > ancient populations that lived in Southeast
> Asia
> > before 15,000 years ago."

> I think you have to distinguish between coastal
> and inland peoples as there appear to be
> significant differences in mtDNA haplogroup
> frequencies (and also, perhaps, significant
> biological differences)

So that's what I'm trying to get across...Kennewick Man is coastal (if one believes Owsley) and the Algonquian people are inland. Yet both have Hap X. So I don't see your point. There are no early coastal sites earlier than the inland sites in the Americas. Anzick is not coastal, Monte Verde shows no coastal influence according to Dillehay, the Brazilians being discussed above don't seem to have anything coastal about their cultures.
Also, the fact that Kennewick Man demonstrates continuity in time and space with hap X with a low percent on the coast and the Algonquian with their 25% hap X calls into question the value of using today's frequencies as a judge of the past may be quite deceiving. Even Reich admits to that. Just as Bernard said, they need ancient DNA. Extrapolating backwards is only a crutch if you haven't got anything else for evidence.

> > Ditto for ancient SE Asian physiognomy,
> neither
> > existed 40 kya ....
>
> Personally, I don't really believe this.

I do. The Marmes Rockshelter is a lot closer to home in time and space than your examples and the DNA results are making Grover Krantz look pretty good tight now. Did you know James Chatters was the last person to study those remains? No report followed. That tells me he had no further evidence to refute what Krantz said originally...clear shoveling of the incisors, which is common to Mongoloids and NE Asia.


> > What Neves (2000) actually said was
> > "some" similarities with
> > Zhoukoudian. "some"? How long is a string?
>
> One Upper cave specimen was said to resemble
> Melanesians and another Eskimo.

And Luzia is said to resemble African according to Neves. So what?

[www.nytimes.com]
"her features appear to be Negroid rather than Mongoloid,"

> The Eskimo
> measurements often fall within the sphere of
> relatives of the Lagoa Santo group. Eskimo
> haplogroup A belongs to the same group as
> Kennewick haplogroup X.

Then post a reference to the specific genes that control morphology. Resembles is not science, it's opinion. No one is challenging that the DNA is more complex than originally thought...the issue is the connection between the morphological differences and the DNA (not to mention the timing problems between the two papers that started this thread). IMO words like resembles and similar to etc. are verbiage, not data.


> The recent Kennewick Man article (Rasmussen et
> al.) must have been mentioned here. It is open
> access:

I just quoted Reich above, they don't have an ancient DNA link between the skull shapes and their DNA results. And until they do, this trumps:

"When the data were analyzed controlling for the effects of genetic drift
(i.e., with smaller long-term effective population sizes for Paleoindians),
the Paleoindian samples were no longer distinct from modern Native American
populations (Powell and Neves 1999)."


Ref.
Powell JF, Neves WA. 1999
Craniofacial morphology of the first Americans: Pattern and process
in the peopling of the New World.
Am J Phys Anthropol. 1999;Suppl 29:153-88




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