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February 23, 2020, 8:13 am UTC    
July 24, 2008 08:51AM
Hello Jiri,

You write, ‘I don't share your opinion. Note that although I had no way of knowing, whose measurements would turn out more systematic, from the very onset I opted for Petrie. This scholar has proven himself, he showed devotion to Giza, put enormous efforts into his objective, and above all - he was independent. In short, I trust Petrie more.

Unless you have evidence to show that Cole and his team were less than fully professional, I would withdraw that statement if I were you.


You write, ‘Of course, now I trust his measurements even more, because of their exact agreement to a distinct set of exact ideas, by which it is easy to reproduce them. That is a heck of a big reason, as the two reinforce each other.’

I think it is a very poor reason.
What you are doing is picking the sets of data that fit your theory.
What you should be doing is studying very closely why there are differences between one set of data and another.
What you will learn is that often the differences are down to practical issues, which then enables you to decide which set of data is likely to be the most accurate.
For example, some of Petrie’s measurements differ to Piazzi Smyth’s, but this is not down to any incompetence on Smyth’s part; on the contrary it is mainly because Petrie had surveying equipment that was in some respects superior to that used by Smyth (chains instead of rods, for example).
Petrie’s measurement for the length of the Descending Passage is incorrect because compacted debris at the bottom of the Passage prevented his seeing the small lip at the junction of the end of the Descending passage floor and the start of the Subterranean Passage floor – the full actual length of the floor was established later by John and Morton Edgar.
Returning to the differences between Petrie’s and Cole’s surveys, if you read Petrie’s and Cole’s accounts in full you soon learn that Cole had an advantage over Petrie in so far as he (Cole) had a team of workers clear more of the mountains of sand and debris heaped up against the Pyramid’s faces than Petrie was able to, thus creating a clearer line of sight at the Pyramid’s pavement.
I am not a surveyor but even I can see the advantage this gave Cole.


You ask, ‘’And why is it that almost everybody chooses to study Petrie's measurements, and not Cole's?’

In my experience it is often for the same reason as you choose Petrie over Cole, i.e. Petrie’s readings fit your theory better than Cole’s do.
The other reason is, surprisingly, that some researchers are simply unaware of the existence of Cole’s survey data.


You write, ‘In the end, the average side of the Great Pyramid comes out a centimetre longer in Cole's version, a result which confirms Petrie even more.’

It confirms nothing more than the fact that you are picking one set of data over another purely on the grounds of which one best fits your theory.


I wrote, ‘The base of the Pyramid is not square (see Cole’s webpage for details)

You reply, ‘Everybody but you sees as common sense that the planners had started out with regular squares as the bases for the pyramids.’

No, Jiri, what I see is the intention for the base of the pyramid to be square but in the case of Khufu’s pyramid the actual product being closer to a parallelogram than a square.
Is this ‘distortion’ from a perfect square intentional?
I don’t know.


You continue, ‘Only after that point do opinions diverge, and while one group thinks that the discrepancies from regularity are due to builder errors, the other one thinks that the basic plan underwent further refinement, due to which each side was assigned a slightly different length.’

If you hold that what some people see as discrepancies (a less than perfect square, for example) are not down to good old ‘builder error’, then the onus is on you to provide clear evidence that the AEs were able to survey over large distances with the accuracy you claim - taking an actual measurement from, say, the corner of one pyramid to the corner of another about half-a-mile away and saying that the measurement was intended is not such evidence.


I wrote, ‘The dimensions (both actual and intended) of Khafre’s and Menkare’s pyramids are markedly less certain than those of Khufu’s pyramid.’

You reply, ‘These dimensions have just proven themselves right on the dot, and utterly systematic. That's a big argument for Petrie's correctness.’

As nobody knows what the intended and finished dimensions of these pyramids were, what you are claiming here is quite simply nonsensical.


I wrote, ‘How do you reconcile the above with your assertion that your ‘Giza Plan’ is the most accurate yet?’

To which you respond, ‘You have the answers above.’

No, all that you have provided is your answers not the answers.


You continue, ‘It would help matters if you admitted in an explicit manner that my Giza Plan truly is in exact agreement with Petrie's plan, and that no other proposal comes as close.’

Sorry, I cannot and will not admit in any manner what-so-ever that your “Giza Plan truly is in exact agreement with Petrie's plan…”
Equally, I cannot and will not admit in any manner what-so-ever that “…no other proposal comes as close.’
I say this because your hypothesis is based on questionable data.
I say again, we don’t know:
What the intended dimensions of the Giza pyramids were.
What the finished dimensions of the Giza pyramids were.
How accurate Petri’s survey of the pyramids and their locations on the plateau is.


You write, ‘These facts are self-evident.”

I can only disagree, and for the reasons just given.


You write, ‘If you deny me this satisfaction of having a solid basis for our debate, all your arguments will appear basically flawed and disingenuous to me.’

And what, exactly, Jiri, is your “solid basis”?
I say again, your hypothesis is based on questionable data (this is a matter of fact and not my opinion), therefore you do not, in effect, have a ‘solid basis’.

I do not know whether or not there was an overall plan for the Giza necropolis.
What I do know, however, is that it is possible to create a veritable myriad of seemingly meaningful geometric patterns out of the data given – how many of them would have had any meaning at all to the planner of the Plateau is, of course, another matter.

MJ
Subject Author Posted

Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 15, 2008 02:05AM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jim Alison July 15, 2008 04:24PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 15, 2008 07:52PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jim Alison July 15, 2008 10:18PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 16, 2008 12:56PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Byrd July 20, 2008 11:13AM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 20, 2008 02:17PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Hermione July 20, 2008 02:34PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 20, 2008 04:40PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Hermione July 21, 2008 04:37AM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 21, 2008 04:12PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Hermione July 22, 2008 08:05AM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 22, 2008 02:28PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

MJ Thomas July 23, 2008 11:14AM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 23, 2008 04:51PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

lobo-hotei July 24, 2008 01:52AM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 24, 2008 02:32AM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

lobo-hotei July 24, 2008 02:41AM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 24, 2008 11:56AM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jammer July 24, 2008 12:19PM

Note to thread

Hermione July 24, 2008 02:28PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Don Barone July 24, 2008 06:35PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 24, 2008 06:56PM

**Moderation note**

Hermione July 25, 2008 04:25AM

LOL! good one n/t

lobo-hotei July 24, 2008 02:41PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

MJ Thomas July 23, 2008 01:00PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 23, 2008 11:26PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

C Wayne Taylor July 24, 2008 05:47AM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

MJ Thomas July 24, 2008 08:51AM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 24, 2008 06:19PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

MJ Thomas July 24, 2008 08:30PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 24, 2008 01:16AM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 24, 2008 01:33AM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 21, 2008 04:27PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Joe_S July 16, 2008 06:54PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 16, 2008 07:16PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Don Barone July 16, 2008 10:07PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 17, 2008 02:40AM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Joe_S July 18, 2008 04:35PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 18, 2008 04:57PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Hermione July 19, 2008 02:30AM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Don Barone July 18, 2008 06:20PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 18, 2008 08:05PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Don Barone July 18, 2008 09:02PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

C Wayne Taylor July 25, 2008 06:10AM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 25, 2008 02:24PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jon_B July 27, 2008 06:05AM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

Jiri Mruzek July 25, 2008 02:57PM

Re: Exact Reconstruction of the Layout of the Great Giza Pyramids

C Wayne Taylor July 28, 2008 04:35AM

Note to sub-thread

Hermione July 28, 2008 05:25AM

an observation

Warwick L Nixon July 28, 2008 10:03AM



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